Curse

Cherng Butter · Mar 21, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

I've never been a particularly skilled hammer warrior, but I was interested in Enraged Smash's potential to to fulfill Dragon Slash's role. Both elites give you 5 adrenaline when they connect, with Enraged Smash being energy based and not completely useless when blocked or missed. Dragon Slash = more DPS and takes slightly less time to spam each one if connecting while under flail. And huge DPS if under FGJ! Knocklocking under FGJ! is easier, while more knockdowns in general are theoretically possible with Enraged Smash. Enraged Smash will always be there and has a nice conditional (though w/ flail up what will you really be catching like bulls? *shrug).

Would something like:

[Enraged Smash][Counter Blow][Save Yourselves!][Brawling Headbutt] [Pulverizing Smash] / [Crushing Blow]* [Flail][For Great Justice!][empty]

work relatively well? Does Pulverizing Smash even work with Brawling Headbutt? You need to squeeze in an extra hit after Brawling, is there enough time?

Icy The Mage · Mar 22, 2009, 01:34 AM // 01:34

There's enough time after brawling headbutt due to the fact it has no aftercast (if you're under an IAS, flail, so you will be).

Arkantos · Mar 22, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Enraged smash isn't reliable enough to compete with dragon slash.

1) Enemies don't kite a lot
2) Hitting a moving enemy under flail isn't going to be fun
3) Hitting a hard mode enemy (IMS) under flail is going to be a lot less fun
4) Under FGJ, you can use dragon slash instantly. Enraged smash has a 5 second recharge. You'll have to effectively use enraged smash every 5 seconds to keep up with the adrenaline gain dragon slash offers.

Assuming you can get enemies to kite all the time, and assuming you'll be able to hit an enemy with a IMS while under flail every 5 seconds, and assuming you can keep your energy up, go for it. If not, it's quite inferior to the standard dragon slash bar.

zling · Mar 22, 2009, 02:24 AM // 02:24

[enraged smash] is actually better for PvP than PvE, as said above PvE mobs dont kite unless they scatter due to AoE, and in that case chasing them with flail is next to impossible...

Eragon Zarroc · Mar 22, 2009, 04:57 AM // 04:57

d-slash over enraged smash. better adren gain and using d-slash/brawling combo with stonefists, u can keep perma kd on single target. stay away from flail, bring enraged charge for initial aden gain. w/p with enduring harmony for longer FGJ. more armor with a shield. I fail to see how this bar overcomes the d-slash bar in any way, unless u gain more pleasure for hammers, then that is just a personal preference ;-)

Lux Aeterna · Mar 22, 2009, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Don't bother with that really. Dragon slash is great, but enraged smash doesn't give as much adrenaline + doesn't do bonus damage + runs you out of energy. I capped it and was meaning to use it in pvp, but dev hammer with bull's just seems better.

Use earthshaker. It can KD mobs several times in a row, and if you're adjacent to enough enemies you can actually use earthshaker every other attack or so.

Made it for Hell's Precipice, gave it away twice last night. Dude was talking about it on vent.

10+1 strength 10+1+1 hammer 11 tactics (don't have a tactics rune on my gear)
[earth shaker][crude swing][whirlwind attack][watch yourself][for great justice][flail][rebirth][enraging charge]

Enraging --> FGD --> Earthshaker -> Flail --> Whirlwind Attack --> Earthskaker --> Crude swing etc etc don't forget to spam watch yourself on recharge to give your whole party +20 armor.

Rebirth can be switched out, but I think I've used it to save my party from a complete wipe twice.

Cherng Butter · Mar 22, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Ahh well, wishful thinking I guess

Thanks for the opinions!

_Nihilist_ · Mar 23, 2009, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Sort of after the fact, but I'd take [Crushing Blow] over [Pulverizing Smash] for the Bonus Damage...

draxynnic · Mar 23, 2009, 04:50 AM // 04:50

I've always thought of Enraged and Dragon as being 'sister' skills - both were intended to serve as the capstone elites to adrenaline-heavy builds, with dragon slashers encouraged to spam their adrenal skills finishing with DS to recharge the rest, and Enraged Smashers encouraged to spam their elite while keeping other skills (hammer skills tending to be a little more conditional than sword skills) in reserve. The wide difference in popularity came from the synergy between DS and FGJ! that allows the damage side of the bar to be massively compressed, and the feeling that it's not worth having a bunch of adrenal skills that you're either not using, or that hurt your DPS when used.

(I played a bit with builds based on the old-style ES in PvE. They certainly weren't edge-of-the-envelope, but they were kinda fun. I should probably delete the templates now, though.)

Generally, if you want to run hammer in PvE, builds like Lux Aeterna's are the way to go, at least if you're expecting to fight multiple knockdownable enemies - the unconditional area knockdown combined with area hits with a hammer forms a powerful combination. I'd be tempted to trade Watch Yourselves for its big brother Save Yourselves in PvE and save the points in Tactics, but YMMV.

Nowadays... the change to Enraged was probably at least a step in the right direction, but I'd like to see at least some of the extra damage becoming unconditional, at least in PvE. That way, it could be used in a similar manner to how Dragon Slash appears to have been intended before FGJ - open with Enraged, run through your adrenal chain, possibly even finishing with a skill that burns all adrenaline like Hammer Blow, then finish off with Enraged - something like what you seem to have set up, in fact. Earthshaker would still be superior against multiple targets, but such a build may be comparable with the DS/Brawling(/Steelfang) combination for knocklocking a single target. The conditional is just a nice bonus.

Actually, come to think on it, I might have to give that a go even in its current state...

Hugh Manatee · Mar 23, 2009, 12:51 PM // 12:51

This:
[asuran scan][enraged smash][pulverizing smash][counter blow][auspicious blow][drunken master][save yourselves!]["For Great Justice!"]

Backed up by something like this:

[Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Withering Aura][Mark of Pain][Foul Feast][Convert Hexes][Signet of Lost Souls]

And yes, some foes do kite, though kite is an understatement, they haul RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing ass.

I've been all over tyria and about 2/3s of the casters I fight in the maguuma jungle, the crystal desert, the northern shiverpeaks and old ascalon know when to haul ass. The only other way to stop them is with [you move like a dwarf]. this doesn't seem to happen in EotN, NF and I don't recall it happening in factions besides when irukanjii would run, but in proph, they do run.

With [Enraged smash] I consistently get hits in the 60-90s on auto attacks under [asuran scan] just from the hammers inherent damage or when I hit something that's not running, when I hit something on the run with smash(mostly useful for grawl, centaur monks and charr that don't cluster for earth shaker and run when confronted by warriors) it goes up a lot, nearly 200 or more if I get lucky on the sundering, then I can hit pulverizing(this hit for about 100 plus conditions), and have [counter blow] to KD stuff that doesn't run(everything attacks, even casters). [Drunken master] is powerful even without the booze. Spam [auspicious blow] for +damage and energy. If you can get [Withering aura] on to a discord or jagged bomber bar you can take the function of the vanguard assassin in a discord spam bar, just scan and whack.

I also have a "giant slayers" version for summit dolyak masters and stuff that doesn't get KD'd, just take out counter blow and pulverizing for [body blow] and [staggering blow]. Maybe put in [I am unstoppable] in for drunken.

_Nihilist_ · Mar 23, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58

[For Great Justice!] is Core, while [Dragon Slash] is Factions. Exactly how do you figure Dragon Slash was intended to be used "before" FGJ! when FGJ! preceded DSlash by almost 2 years? Maybe you meant before [Save Yourselves!]? That would make much more sense.

/curious

draxynnic · Mar 24, 2009, 02:37 AM // 02:37

What I meant was before the FGJ-DS combination became common knowledge. I may be projecting, but the intent of the adrenaline boost for DS (and, now, ES) does seem to be to support other adrenal skills on your bar rather than allowing for twenty to thirty (with Enduring Harmony) seconds of spammage.

I also remember FGJ being less attractive when Factions first came out, making it a less obvious option than it is now. (Can't remember exactly how it was different, but I think it was more expensive and didn't last as long - it was basically useful for charging up your first round of attacks but not for sustained use, much like the PvP version is now.)

FoxBat · Mar 24, 2009, 03:51 AM // 03:51

FGJ used to be a mere 50% adrenaline boost for a very long time, so the FGJ-SY combo didn't let you re-spam instantly.

draxynnic · Mar 24, 2009, 04:34 AM // 04:34

That'd be it!

I remembered that the FGJ-DS-spam combo wasn't viable when Factions was released and that it was after some change to FGJ that it kicked in, but I (obviously) couldn't remember just what that change was. I'm pretty sure it cost 10 energy at some stage as well, though.

(I actually don't remember DS-spamming becoming a significant part of the meta until around when EOTN came out, but that could have been due to my guild being slow to jump on the bandwagon. I know I was busy trying to make the DS-BH-Steelfang combo without Brawling Headbutt through half of Nightfall...)